Matt Campagna: Visual Cognitive Training in the Fitness Market (Full Transcript)
Full Transcript:
Ronen Ainbinder 0:45
Today, joining us for the Halftime Snacks is an engineer, a sports enthusiast, and a thriving entrepreneur. Snacking with us directly from Pennsylvania is the CEO and co-founder of Reflexion — a technology company looking to create tools to train and monitor athletes' brains. There, they've developed "The Edge" – a technology that tracks, trains, and strengthens neural-responses, resulting in both neurologic and physical performance enhancement. Ladies and gentlemen, Matt Campagna!
Matt Campagna 1:14
Hey, Ronen, thanks for having me on the show!
Ronen Ainbinder 1:17
Man, I always like to ask a super quick icebreaker at the beginning. So my icebreaker for you is what's your favorite snack to have when you're watching a soccer match?
Matt Campagna 1:27
Ooh, favorite snack? I'm probably going to have to go with like chicken and broccoli,
Ronen Ainbinder 1:33
Chicken and broccoli!? Okay.
Matt Campagna 1:35
Yeah. Lean protein and veggies.
Ronen Ainbinder 1:41
That I must say, that was not the answer I was expecting. But that's a good one. Man. I think I'm not going to find someone that likes the same snack as you. But that's something that makes you unique. That's awesome, man. I want to start our conversation or serious conversation by talking about your founding Reflexion, like the story. And I don't want to know what it takes to become a founder of such a technology company today? And why people need to pay for education to be able to create such a company?
Matt Campagna 2:14
Sure. Jason Calacanis, a famous angel investor, I think said it well, you have to be delusional with skill. And I think that's what it comes down to; you have to have a vision that you won't succeed if you look at the odds. You probably have a one in 10, one in 10 chance of succeeding. But you have to believe that you're going to execute on your vision, and you're going to be one of the few who's able to win. And I think that's important. You have to believe strongly, and you have to motivate an entire team to believe strongly and in what you're building. But at the same time, you have to execute every single day. There's no, there's no room for, for error. Sure, you can mess up, you can fail along the way, you can stumble. But you have to continue to execute; always be keeping your eyes on what it takes to get to the next milestone to keep moving towards your goal and continue to execute. It comes down to just working, hard and smart.
Ronen Ainbinder 3:26
And I guess that? I mean, because I remember in our first conversation, you told me the story that you dropped out of school because you started Reflexion. You realize that it's more practical and theoretical, and probably schools today don't teach you the most practical stuff, most like the things that happen in life. And would you say that the value proposition of education in schools needs to change drastically for students in the future to get a better sense of what's happening in real life? Or do you think that that's just how it is and it's never going to change? Do you have any take on that?
Matt Campagna 4:05
I think it depends. I think many people probably don't need a four-year degree. And here in the US, I think that there's a large perception that if you don't go to a four-year university, you're a failure. And I think that secondary schools set you up for that. They teach you that if you don't make a quarter-million-dollar debt decision, or whatever the case might be paying for higher some sort of degree at a post-secondary school, that you're lesser than everyone else. I think we all agree that that's, that's not the case. But that is the way that it's painted. I think that some people want to build an engine, and we'll go read about it at a university, and some people want to build an engine and can pick up a wrench and figure out how to do it. There are multiple ways to be successful, and that universities should focus on providing value to the customer, the customer being the student. Unless that it's on publishing or perish, where I think that sometimes incentives for faculty and staff at universities become misaligned with the goals of educating and producing high functioning students who do great things in their field. So, yeah. That shift needs to happen if education institutions that exist today want to survive and want to continue to produce high-quality talent.
Ronen Ainbinder 5:49
Totally. Matt, I agree with you. And I think we're in an exciting time, because of how technology now is shifting, even where you can find information. Now everything you can just learn online, in any skill, any class, any, whatever you want to do, you can just go on YouTube, find the course. And so I think it's just going to, it's just going to be very different in a few years when universities kind of catch up. And as I agree with you, there's no one path to success; there are many, and learning is very important to develop, but there are many ways to learn. So that's kind of like the idea. So I've read a lot about Reflexion, and the story kind of like you guys from were some friends who realized there was a problem in the market related to concussions and brain injury. So I want you to tell us a quick story of how, how you guys started deflection, what's the fitness market position? And who is the product that you're building for? Who are you trying to help? What's the pain that you're trying to solve?
Matt Campagna 7:05
The basic premise for Reflexion as a visual cognitive sports training company is that everything in sports begins with your vision. How quickly you can see something and how quickly you can decide, act, and react is crucial to athletic performance. Whether you're a wide receiver in the end zone, looking for the ball out of your peripheral, or your fighter, trying to recognize your opponent's tendencies so that you can react accordingly, or you're a hitter staring down 100 miles per hour fastball. Still, those are all visual cognitive processes that can be trained and assessed to make better athletes. And even though almost every other aspect of performance at this point has been made. Trackable, traceable on your wrist or your smartphone, visual cognitive hasn't been given that same attention. We've done at Reflexion with a series of gamified drills that leverages our state-of-the-art-based touch screen whiteboards; we've been able to develop these modules. Our athletes can walk up to our touchscreens and play games that train those visual cognitive skills, making them better athletes and keeping them safe. So we serve gyms, performance training centers, high schools, and universities primarily, basically anywhere that has athletes trying to get to the next level or already elite and are trying to get those extra few percentage points to make them come out on top. And we started the company when my co-founder, Matt Roda, so we're both Matt – slid headfirst into the boards during an ice hockey game. And he was at breakaway speed, so it headfirst into the boards was sidelined with a concussion. And his coach asked them, Matt, where are you? What year is it, and who's president, and that was their idea of taking care of his brain. And from that point, we became critically interested in visual cognitive performance wellness for athletes and how to keep them safe and as performant as possible. We realized that if you want to keep athletes Well, you have to help them win because that's what they care about their competitors. And that was the impetus for why we started Reflexion
Ronen Ainbinder 9:32
In the fitness market, consumer products that we have out there are Peloton, Tonal, Mirror. How is Reflexion positioned in terms of professional vs. amateur is the product for what type of athlete, and if It's more towards the high end in paying consumers? Or is it more? You guys are thinking about something more affordable that will be distributed among all the schools in the US. And then later in the world or every Sports Center in the world? What are you? What are you guys thinking in terms of positioning yourself in the market?
Matt Campagna 10:21
Well, Ronen, this is a technology adoption curve, right? I think, especially in sports tech, you'll see that the elite athletes, those who are at the top, are always the early adopters of the technology. And eventually, you want to be over here on the S curve, right? That's every school that's every, every gym, every mainstream gym, every big box gym. However, you want to say that. And previously, visual cognitive training was just for the elite. And at Reflexion, we're at that inflection point, where we're starting to serve mainstream gyms. And we've made visual cognitive training accessible so that anyone, even if they're not an expert in visual cognitive training, can do it. So you don't have to have a neurologist on your staff to do it anymore. Or an optometrist you can, you can use our software and our hardware to become a better athlete through visual cognitive training. We can show you how you stack up against your peers. We can suggest training plans based on your goals and previous performance. And, our mission is to make visual cognitive training ubiquitous. So that eventually it is in everybody's hands, and every athlete everywhere can use it. But right now, what we're doing is crossing that chasm from, from the sort of early majority, early majority or, or right after the early adopters to mass market,
Ronen Ainbinder 11:49
The high-end market usually gets the first because I think about it. For example, the iPhone was owned initially by only high-end paying consumers. Then they figured out how to scale it and just put it in everyone else's pockets. So I guess it makes sense for a Reflexion to do that. And would you have like a timeline of knowing more or less, when would you be expecting the chasm to be crossed? Or do you have any idea of how you guys want to build up from where you are right now? Also, if you want to share where you are right now? And what's coming up in probably the next one to three years? What are you guys thinking about?
Matt Campagna 12:31
Sure, I mean, our goals right now are to continue to make visual cognitive training more accessible. Right now, we have an entire infrastructure for showing you how you stand, how you've progressed over time as an athlete, your visual cognitive performance. That is how you stack up against your peers. And where we're headed now is using the enormous amount of visual cognitive data that we've collected. We're running more than 10,000 digital cognitive training drills per month right now. Our athlete user base, taking that data together with demographic data, suggests tailored training plans to those athletes, thus saving coaches time and giving them a leg up to automate part of the process. Which ultimately means that it's easier and easier for athletes to use the product. And so our goal is to make those tailored training plans automated and extremely productive, and their outcomes over the next call it 123 years. And I think that's what's going to allow us to reach athletes at every level. And so that's, that's kind of our timeline. However, I think that admittedly, you can have a timeline for these sorts of things; what's important from a business perspective is making sure that you are the leader and that you're, you're keeping track of, of where the markets at and then in the desire for the product and the demand. And you're staging your product roadmap around the market, and maybe testing things that are a little bit too soon for the market and taking note of that and just dialing in, based on what customers are saying and what you're seeing. Still, it's something that, to some extent, you can catalyze, but you can't necessarily change the natural pace of the adoption.
Ronen Ainbinder 14:43
Yeah, it's kind of like the timing in the market. Knowing if you're on the right time to present a pretty specific product with specific needs, from the customer to learn and adapt in himself to To do it, I guess that if Spotify would have come out, right after the iPhone came out probably wasn't; it would not have been good timing because people weren't ready to just don't understand how to use these kinds of apps and stuff. So I guess what you say is right. And now that you mentioned, also kind of like the challenges of timing, I wonder if there's any other kind of challenges you think you as a sports tech founder face and why? Let's say, for instance, if I want to start a sports technology startup right now, what would you tell me to double-check? Right, before I, I just phase myself into a wall and make the same mistake that probably you did?
Matt Campagna 15:54
I think that I have two points. And I think that neither of them is necessarily specific to sports tech. Although maybe this first one is, many ideal customers have clout; they're big brands. And what we found early on is that many of them will want to use your product without paying you whether that's a promise that may or may not be true, that they'll promote the product, or that they're just so big, that you'll be able to tell people that they're using it, and that will be good enough. But at the end of the day, listen to the people who vote with their wallets. If somebody wants a product, and you're solving something, they will pay you. And sure, if it's a big brand that can be in-kind, there are legitimate ways to structure those sorts of deals. But I think it's important that you pay most attention to where you're getting real traction. And from a business perspective, that's where the revenue is coming from. So who's paying you? Because if they're paying you, you are solving a real problem for them; nobody's going to give you $1 if you're not providing them value. So that's number one. Number two, also about customers, will often tell you how your product should be. But they'll do it, which might sound great, you're like, Well, of course, you'd want to listen to your customers. But many times, they'll do it by telling you features, which are not the same as understanding their problem. If you listen to a customer's feature request every single time, they say you'll have a ton of features that don't fit together into any; you're solving a specific problem for one customer and a specific problem for another customer. But what that leads to is a confusing product overall. And what's important, and is a practice that we try to implement every day, is making sure that the people are building the product. So this is your engineering team. Speaking to customers and understanding the problems and peeling back if they tell you we want XYZ feature we want baseball-specific training, visual cognitive training set understanding, why do you want that? Why can't you use our drills and make a set yourself? Is it because you don't, you don't have time, you don't know which drills matter specifically for the group of athletes that you're trying to train? You need to understand the actual motives and then build the solution for those problems rather than blindly listening to everything your customers say.
Ronen Ainbinder 18:49
That's super interesting, Matt; I guess that it goes along the lines of probably the customer does not have a clear idea of what they want. They may have an idea of what they wish they had. But that may not potentially solve the pain, as you mentioned, directly. So it's more about understanding the pain. I think that's fascinating. I think we could speak about that for so many hours, so many halves. That's next. Sadly, we don't have the time. But I want to ask you now about Reflexion's business model and how do you guys make money? And if you see it pivoting in the next 10 or 20 years, with developments in technology? Why or why not?
Matt Campagna 19:33
Sure. So I mean our business model for both our b2b that's the edge, and b2c products flex like most connected fitness products are SAS plus a box. So you buy either the edge, which is our portable two by a six-foot touchscreen that engages athletes, peripheral vision, and functional movement, and it's great for elite athletes. It's more premium. It's more engineered, or the flex is touchscreen TV-based products that are great for in-home where you're not trying to take up wall space and fit into the environment of an athlete's home. So you buy those products, and when you subscribe to an annual or monthly subscription. That provides you access to all of our drills, visual cognitive tracking, leaderboards, tailor training recommendations, all from that subscription. And so that's how our business model works, similar to Peloton, or tonal or Mirror or any other connected fitness product. As I mentioned, our target customers are gyms, performance training centers, teams, Academic, athletic organizations like secondary and post-secondary schools that have athletic teams. And those are our customers, the trainers, the strength coaches, at those organizations or who rave about us now those are the people we serve, specifically in those organizations. And then, of course, the ad user athletes logging into our software, running the visual cognitive training drills, and viewing their results. But they're sort of an end-user where the coaching or training staff are our customers.
Ronen Ainbinder 21:19
But would you say that technologies such as Reflexion are developing in hardware and software that comes with it and the things you are doing? Would you say that this technology will eventually replace coaches? No, I
Matt Campagna 21:41
I don't think that it does. I think that what it does is makes the coach's job easier. You still need a coach to push the athlete along. And I think that maybe it replaces an assistant coach in some position far down the road. But people are underrated, by and large. And I think that what we do is we make a coach's job easier by automatically assigning visual cognitive training drills to them. That coach can review their results with them with the analysis we do and know everything else about that athlete that helps drive decisions that we can't make, right? We don't know how the athletes slept. We don't know if the athletes had a bad day. I'm sure at some point in the future; we might be able to aggregate some of that data. But the point here is that there are always external factors that are sort of soft, right? That you that the coach can understand, understand the whole athlete and who they are and help take them to the next level.
Ronen Ainbinder 22:48
That gives me a lot of food for thought. Because now that you mentioned sleeping, the company Whoop tracks everything related to stress, strain, sleep, and recovery. And one day, maybe we'll see a collaboration between Whoop and Reflexion, and out of a sudden, a coach is not going to be needed because just these machines would be able to provide better insights and better-tailored recommendations to the athlete. And so I guess that it's an interesting time in terms of sports technology. And we'll see some cool things develop very, very soon, I'm sure that you've already experienced this kind of realization, and you're you, you are on the top of the industry in terms of how things are developing so fast. And I wonder just quick, if you have an insight of where the visual development training space is going in the next probably five to 10 years, do you think that it will change drastically? Or what's your take about it?
Matt Campagna 24:02
It's a good question. I think visual cognitive training is following a very similar trajectory to strength training. And if you think back several years, if you were, say, a soccer player, you wouldn't even think about strength training because it would make you slow; you wouldn't be agile. And now there's hardly somebody who even calls themselves fit that isn't doing strength training. And I think visual cognitive is following a very similar trajectory, and it starts at the top, as we've talked about earlier. Then it trickles down to everybody else until it's ubiquitous. Tony Kanaan, an Indy 500 champion that we train, I think says it well. He says your eyes; they're no different from your biceps or your triceps or your legs. You have to train them just like every other muscle. I've been Holyfield, son of four-time Heavyweight Champion Evander Holyfield, who we train undefeated in his career so far; he calls us the training future. And I think that for us, it's making visual cognitive training ubiquitous; I think it's following a similar trajectory to strength training. And like we did with the flex our consumer product this year, we'll continue to develop downstream products that serve more and more of that sports and fitness market. And I think there's maybe an analogy here even to Tesla, where you start with, let's say, the Roadster, a very premium product designed for, for only those who can afford it are on the cutting edge of AV technology. You come out with the Model S that's a bit more affordable that more people can obtain. Model three is widely available for many folks, and I'm sure future models will get more and more affordable there. But what they're doing is they're serving a broader swath of the population with each product. And like I mentioned, with flex our rollout of the consumer product this year, and more downstream products, potentially stuff, or only other hardware platforms to come, then we'll be able to follow a similar trajectory in visual cognitive.
Ronen Ainbinder 26:16
That sounds super fascinating, Matt; I'm looking forward to it. And since we were running out of time when I asked you a last and quick question, and that is what's the kind of thing that someone has ever done for you?
Matt Campagna 26:27
That's, that is a very, very difficult question. I think I think it's hard to pick out one. But I would say, especially as an entrepreneur, that it's a roller coaster. And you have the highest highs and the lowest lows. And I think that having family and friends that are constantly there for you, whether it's grabbing coffee, or a wellness check or just telling you what you mean to them. I think that is probably one of the things that is one of the things that I'm most grateful for in my life. In aggregate, the support of family and friends is like the kind of thing that others do for me.
Ronen Ainbinder 27:18
That's awesome. Matt, thank you so much for sharing. And I want to thank you so much for coming to the halftime snacks, man. It says it has been an absolute pleasure to have discussions with you about Reflexion, visual cognitive training, and everything that you guys are doing in the fitness market. I think it's super exciting, and I can't wait to see what's coming. What's going to come out of you guys in a few years. Super, super looking forward to it. Yeah, man, thank you so much for joining us in having their snack.