Venugopal Rajagopalan: Lessons From Sports Sales & Marketing (Full Transcript)
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Ronen Ainbinder
I'm happy to introduce a massive guest to today's Halftime Snack! Joining us from Toronto, Canada, is a sports technology enthusiast with over 14 years of experience working in the sports industry. His expertise lies in the intersection between multiple domains, such as sales, marketing, analytics, and content writing. This man has worked with leading sports tech companies such as Hudl, Catapult Sports, Sportsinsight, and Pitchvision. Additionally, he worked with different teams as a performance analyst. It is an honor to introduce – the one and only; Venugopal Rajagopalan!
Venugopal Rajagopalan
Thank you, Ronen. Such a pleasure to be on your show. I've seen some of your previous episodes. It's wonderful to connect beyond the show.
Ronen Ainbinder
Man, it's great to have you on the show. And I want to start by talking a little bit about your background. While I was doing my research, I realized that you did a bachelor's degree in India. So I guess you're from India, and you grew up there. So I want to talk a little bit about your education. What are some of the key lessons that you've learned? Maybe you live while you were living there, or in your career that you apply in sports today?
Venugopal Rajagopalan
Yep, you're right. I was born and brought up in India, in a place called New Delhi, India's capital. I did my graduation back there in information technology, although I did it in it. But, I was never a geek, or never a programmer, per se. It was predominantly the functional side of it that caught my attention. And I just, I was amazed by the way computer systems work, and, how new programs are developed, and, how the technology world is taking shape. And, back then, when I did my graduation in the early 2000s, this was a big booming space. That got me interested in knowing more about how tech development. After that, I did my postgraduate diploma in management. That was a big learning curve for me. It taught me the virtues of leadership and knowing where to apply, the concepts that I've learned in my graduation and my graduation, so that's applied say management is applied science. That's how I knew, how do I, fix it together and see, so that's something which was quite a big learning for me. So, so yeah, so that was my education. I did not have a clue in terms of where to take my career in the beginning. Like everyone else, I joined the bandwagon of the rat race and joined the IT industry and started with some roles in sales and marketing in the IT domain. But that was a huge learning curve. That was the building block of me getting into the corporate world and understand how things work, how to make proposals, how to make a sales pitch, all those kinds of stuff. And so yeah, so that, that helped me a lot.
Ronen Ainbinder
Was there something, of course, now you're living in Toronto, in Canada, and I suppose I've never been to India? Still, I suppose that it's very different in terms of both societies and what sports mean to society and what it means? Was there something specific about Toronto sports life that pushed you to move there? Or how would you compare India and Toronto, Canada as, as it may, for someone working in sports, can you give us a little bit of a comparison?
Venugopal Rajagopalan
In my initial few years in the IT industry, I worked there for a few years, five years, and down the line, I wanted to do something different than life., there was some bit of soul searching that I did. While I was also interested in sport, big time, and being in India and like, you mentioned that you did not know much about India, but, cricket as a sport as a religion there. So it's like, it's in everybody's blood., if you're in India, if you don't love cricket, you're not an Indian. That's how it is. So I kept playing club cricket back then on weekends, corporate and club cricket, and doing something related to sport, but I did not know what. So, I just started doing a bit of research after office hours, and on weekends, in terms of where do, I see myself fitting into the sports industry. And that's when I figured out that performance analysis or sports analytics is coming up in a big way. I'm talking about 2008-9-10, then, and sports was catching up big on technology. And these were some of the areas which were becoming more prominent. That's when I started doing a bit of freelance work with some of the market players. I started by working on weekends and helping out a couple of startups with their analytic needs, analysis, and stuff. After that, I started getting a little more confident about where I fit into the scheme of things, and then, one fine day, I just decided that that said, I want to take a plunge of faith and get into this. I feel that I belong here. And that's how I started working with a startup and then slowly got into some of the bigger companies like you mentioned; Hudl was known as Sportstec back then before Hudl took over. So, grew, the market for them in India helped them build, brand in India, and work with clubs. So they were predominantly into performance analysis, solutions, video analysis, and stuff. I also got an opportunity to work with the football club as a performance analyst, as you mentioned in my intro. That was a huge learning experience because football wasn't my domain as a sport, which I understood in detail. I knew about the sport, but then, analyzing it working with a coach was completely different. So that experience helped me a lot because I'd worked on the company side before, and then I worked on the customer side, so that was a huge transition. So that helped me understand how technology is perceived as well as consumed by sports and by customers. That was the stage when India was coming up, as a maturing market, in sports and technology. Afterward, we had a few family reasons to move to Toronto, with my wife getting a good role out here, with her career, so I just thought, "why not explore this new market as well." In 2017, we decided to come over here and maybe explore this side of the world as well, because I always wanted to understand and maybe see how mature markets or, or different markets, react differently to technology in sport. So it's been an interesting learning curve. Sport here is very different than what it is back in India. Because here you have a big big factor, which is the weather, which plays a huge role, in sport. So you have an indoor sport, an outdoor sport, and you have summer sports and winter sports. So that's how it is, segregated, and cricket. There is a bit of cricket here, and I still play some club cricket on weekends in summer. But then yeah, it's not the number one sport, it's more of a summer sport. I then learned a lot about how sports management sports marketing works here and how people look at fan engagement. And that's how I landed up into the current role or the current project I'm doing with Fanisko.
Ronen Ainbinder
It sounds like you were able to take some of that as the best side of each of the two worlds, and intersection that it would be very hard to find in, especially in Canada, of someone that knows and has these backgrounds such as yours, which I think it's amazing. And I'm really curious to ask you then about your favorite client, who do you think has been your favorite client work within sports? You mentioned Hudl. That was Sportstec back then. You mentioned also, I know that you worked with Catapult — a company I've been following for years now. And I think it's amazing. But I want to ask you, which has been your favorite client to work with, and why would you say so?
Venugopal Rajagopalan
Honestly, there are so many wonderful experiences that I've had working with all these wonderful organizations, So, and each of them had a unique experience in itself. For example, when I started with Hudl, when I started there in India, I've been to Australia for a few days of training. I got to experience how the sport is perceived there and how they look at technology and sport and how different it is to India. That was a big learning curve and a big learning experience both for the company and for me as well in terms of how do you sell this technology in a completely different market, where a lot of education was needed. They needed a lot of hand-holding, and they needed a lot of marketing to make people aware of what it is. And that was a big experience because when you see those initiatives bearing fruit, and your efforts getting recognized and getting into converting a customer, that's when you feel good about it? It was similar to Catapult because Catapult was an extremely technical product, the GPS tech that is there. For me, as a non-sports scientist, to understand that and sell that was a huge challenge. For anybody getting into that domain, and, trying to sell that technology, and talking to coaches and strength and conditioning experts in their language, it was a challenge. So you had to make sure that you read up everything that is there, and you understand what you're selling, and not just go there. Like a typical sales guy, no disrespect to sales, guys, but just going there and having a big mouth and speaking, speaking, speaking, and not understanding context. That's something which I enjoyed a lot. I mean, currently, with family school, this is another favorite challenge because of fan engagement. And this is interesting because, with COVID, digital fan engagement is now a huge priority. For teams for clubs for everybody. Before this, you had stadiums filled with fans, but now with empty stands with empty stadiums, what do you do? So this is the only option available, engaging fans digitally? How do you get sponsorship through digital mediums? So this is a very, very interesting challenge. I think this is one of my current favorite projects as well, and it's fun, it's cool, because I'm getting to learn a lot in this endeavor, and as well as being in this environment in this new, exciting space, it's helping me hone my skills as well. And, it's giving me that entrepreneurial feeling wherein, you are working for a startup and, trying to project this, and, it's, it's pretty interesting, it's very, very interesting. This space will grow like anything, and that's where I feel the future is going to be with fan engagement, digital.
Ronen Ainbinder
Now that you mentioned both marketing and sales and engagement. I want to ask you, if there are, if it comes to mind if you think there are three or four marketing and sales practices, that teams and brands should do more even technology companies, which practices Do you think they should do more of that they're not doing? And why do you think that they are essential?
Venugopal Rajagopalan
From a marketing and sales standpoint, one part, in terms of how do you sell or market differently to different markets or geographies. So I think that's a very valid point. In my experience with Catapult and even with Hudl, we had a clear cut strategy of approaching India as a market because people don't understand the technology right away. It has to go through education and marketing as well as getting people to know about the technology first, dangling and telling that, what, this is a product, this is what you will get this is a price pay for it, that doesn't work in India, or even in Asia, for that matter. So, it would be best if you had to when the customer's confidence, and that's where I feel that, seminars, webinars, education, as well as, handling clients, giving them a maybe a free demo license to try out something and, then seeing is believing, that's, that's how it works. So I think that's how the approach should be for four markets, which are not as mature as some other markets. So that's big learning, I think that's something which companies should do, especially if they are looking to insure enter, say, places like South Asia and stuff. Because it's not that customers don't want to buy it, it's just that sometimes they don't understand. That's where you need to generate the lead, and how do we generate the need by effective marketing? That's something that needs to happen.
Ronen Ainbinder
Wow, that's a really good lesson. I didn't think about it that way. But I feel like when you have experience working in different markets, you understand that not every market is the same. And also not the needs of every person in the market are the same. So learning how to compensate for the needs, identifying clients, potential interests are some of the things that I take away from what you say, and I appreciate that, Venu. You became a freelancer in the sports industry. You consult companies, and you help them in business development, market research, sales, marketing, and all of these things. What were some of the advantages that you've realized from becoming this Freelancer in the sports industry? And I want to know if there are any disadvantages to the format of working that way. Is there any disadvantage? Can you tell us a little bit about both sides?
Venugopal Rajagopalan
Advantages are plenty. One is that you tend to experience a wide range of clients to work with and a wide industry in terms of, you could work. For example, now I'm doing something in fan engagement, I'm also doing something in market research, I'm also teaching a few university students back home in India. So, it's like you're broadening your scope. You could do much more sitting at home, working from home, or working from anywhere in the world, So you have multiple avenues to work for, and your learning increases, your network increases. I think that's the biggest advantage, and people start knowing that you grow your network when you do multiple projects. It's a big learning curve for anybody who is doing multiple things together., of course, all those things have to prioritize. How do we deliver each project, it's not that the quality should go down. I should do everything. That's also a key message, which I would like to point out as a freelancer because your brand and reputation are on the line. So that also matters. Disadvantages? Well, I think I won't put it as a disadvantage. Still, it's a challenge that there are certain times of the year when you may not get active projects, because there is offseason time or, you're when teams are not actively in sports, so, so basically, you got to hunt for your next meal. That's how it is. So if I could put it, there will be days when you will, when your work will be high in demand, there will be days when you will be having just like sports teams, have offseason, you will also have an offseason, wherein you may not have too much of work to do, but then that's okay. You take it in your stride, and you get to spend time with family, you get to travel, you get to do multiple things. So that's the advantage and the disadvantage side of the freelance part.
Ronen Ainbinder
Yeah. And I also saw that you are a public speaker, and you give conferences, of course, now that it might be even harder, or you do it online. But I guess that it also gives you time and space to do things that you might love to do, just for the sake of doing them like giving conferences, or being a teacher or helping other people out, which I think is great. And I appreciate that answer, Venu. I want to hear your thoughts and ask you if Do you think there are a few trends? Or what trends Do you see coming for both sports marketing and analysis performance in the next few years? What are your thoughts on that?
Venugopal Rajagopalan
in terms of performance analysis, one area doing the rounds right now and is a futuristic thing to look out for is machine learning and AI. I think that is huge. I have seen the market because performance analysts and lots of people do a lot of donkey work, collecting data, coding each moment of the game or tagging stuff, and using video and stuff. Now, with AI cameras or even computer vision, all that donkey work is reduced. And that's a big, big plus. Because the analyst and the coach can then focus on the strategic side of things, instead of doing the tactical side or capturing the data, if we can automatically capture the data. If we can do it accurately, that will be a huge plus for any team because it saves a lot of time and effort and human effort. Of course, when I say that, I explained that with the greatest, greatest respect for humans, because technology is there as an enabler, it's not something to replace you. And that's something which I keep harping upon, in all my conferences that, some of the coaches, or some of the people, some people may not see technology as a big thing, they might see it as a threat, they might feel that, oh my god, this is going to take away my job. Still, it's not like that, especially in sport. There's no greater strategic insight machine than a human brain; that's what I will say. Technology is there to enable you to make better decisions, but it cannot make the decision., that's how I'll put it. That's another trend, which I see and in my current role with Fanisko is a digital engagement and augmented reality. I think this is a huge crane, which will come up Virtual Reality Augmented Reality, because now fans may not get access to stadiums because of things like COVID but, how can they be involved in the team? How can sponsors get involved by doing these immersive experiences? By doing these augmented reality initiatives and digital fan engagement initiatives, that's how you will get fans to get involved, sponsors to get involved, and the teams to have more digital fans engaged.
Ronen Ainbinder
Wow, that's super interesting. Venu. I appreciate that. The key takeaway from what you just said is that we should see technology as a tool that will help us reduce the dirty work, the cluttered work, and the things that humans might take them years to do. It's going to enable us it's, it's used, as leverage, it will help you and humans make better decisions, because they, the technology will enable you to make better decisions.
Venugopal Rajagopalan
Absolutely. If I could give you an example of the same thing, what I was doing with the football club?. So my standard job used to be, filming the game. We used to have broadcaster footage as well. Still, we were very careful not to rely on the broadcasters because the broadcast would focus on multiple other things, which we don't mean, for example, on the crowd, or, we will specifically focus on the ball. But what the coach needed was a complete bird's eye view of the football pitch, where he could see team formations, he could see who's where, if somebody is out of position, and if the striker or the goalkeeper in the best position to take that shot, or, save the goal. So, that was something which I used to do, fill in the game, come back. There used to be a complete series of analyses that we used to do with the coach. The first day used to be just looking at a ball to play a version of the game. So when I say ball in play, it's cutting out all the time that the ball is not in play, or injury time or substitution, blah, blah, blah, everything — the packaged, complete 90 minutes footage into 60 to 65 minutes to show the record as a highlights package. The second day used to be looking at team level stats, what the team has done, how many parcels were successful on successful percentage, blah, blah, blah, all those kinds of stuff. The third level of analysis used to be player level analysis, what does each player do in his position, so we broke down all those stats into these kinds of components. So it used to take me. It used two or three days to compile everything together. If AI or machine learning can help break this down and help simplify this process, nothing like it, So it saves human time and effort. Plus, it helps the analyst focus on other things with the coach, which the coach wants to do.
Ronen Ainbinder
Wow, that's a great example, Venu. I love it. I never thought about it that way. But putting it in that specific scenario, I understand it perfectly. And I'm sure the listeners will understand it as well. And my last question for you, then we'll, before we go, I want to ask you a personal question. And that is, what's the best advice that someone has ever given to you? And why do you remember that as being the best advice,
Venugopal Rajagopalan
I've been very fortunate to have worked with a lot of wonderful people in my career. And I've learned a lot from them as well. One person who, who I'll always remember throughout my life, as a leader, as a mentor is, he was the former CEO of sports-tech, which is now called Hudl. His name was Philip Jackson. And I think his personality, as well as his aura, and, the way he carried himself, as well as the way he treated people, it was so beautiful, and, the perfect example of leadership, as well, as, how to run a company successfully, how to get the right processes in place. And, sitting in Australia, he had a complete bird's eye view of what's happening worldwide with the company. I think he had great insights. One of the famous quotes that he always used to tell us, especially when we used to discuss business plans within this, I made the mistake of making a presentation and telling him, "I hope that this gets converted, and we'll have this in the next quarter". And then he quickly pointed out to me that, what we know, hope is not a business plan. So I think I'll always put that's big. And that was something that is embedded in me throughout my life. I always remember that quote, whenever I say the word hope, then you'll say that hope is not a business plan. If it was there, it has to be something measurable, or it should not be there.
Ronen Ainbinder
That's great, man. I think that's a great place to wrap today's conversation. Venu has a clear experience and a unique set of background and knowledge in sports and technology. And there's so much to learn from him. I appreciate your time, Venu! It was amazing to host you on this half and snacks show. I can't wait for us to meet and talk more about sports and technology in the future. Hopefully, once this pandemic is over, but for now, thank you so much for coming to the Halftime Snacks!