Chad Goebert: Augmented Reality (AR) in Sports & Marketing (Full Transcript)
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Ronen Ainbinder 0:32
Today's episode of the Halftime Snacks features a massive human being! The man we'll be hosting today is a sports tech researcher with over 9 years of experience specializing in different areas of various athletic and recreational programs. His research is focused on the use of immersive technologies in sports marketing, and he's looking to understand the role and value of AR as a tool to improve the fan experience. Additionally, our guest has been a sports leadership instructor and lecture assistant for over 5 years. This guy will give us a complete lecture on sports technology, and I can't wait to learn from him, so without further ado,
Allow me to introduce: Chad Goebert! How are you, man?
Chad Goebert 1:18
I'm doing good. How are you doing? Thanks for having me.
Ronen Ainbinder 1:20
Man. I'm doing fantastic pleasure to host you kick it off with a fun icebreaker, man. Would you rather fight a horse-sized duck? Or 100? Duck-sized horses?
Chad Goebert 1:33
Oh, easily 100 duck-sized horses, birds, birds are the worst people don't realize it. And if they were big enough, they wouldn't take us out. And so as soon as you make them big enough, it's gonna take us out. So for sure, I don't need birds being any bigger than they are. They already are to do all kinds of stuff. They'll dive bomb you when they're way smaller than us to think if they were that big, that'd be a problem.
Ronen Ainbinder 1:53
No, man, I agree with you. 100% it was great to have you on the show. We're gonna be discussing a lot of things, specifically AR. And of the goal of the episode is really to understand what AR is like seeing it from a very basic and understandable Stanford standpoint. We don't know how it's related to sports. Also wanting to learn how and why you ended up studying AR and focusing your research on that. And really also discussing the value and adoption curve of AR technology and what it means for the future of sports. So how about we kick it off with juice? Are you trying to explain to us? , as if we were five years old? What is AR, and how does it work? And how is it really related to sports?
Chad Goebert 2:40
Yeah, so that's always the trick, like what most people have liked, had an interaction with AR, and they may not even know that it's AR. But the way I talk about it is it's an interactive and immersive experience that brings like it utilizes digitally created elements. So something is some sort of digitally created graphic, but it brings it into the real-world environment. So virtual reality, you're going to put on a headset, and you're going to go into a completely digitally created world. That whole world that you're experiencing is not real. You're in a digitally created world. Whereas augmented reality can be experienced through a headset, we mostly experience it through our phones or some other type of medium like that. And it's bringing digital elements into the real world. Most people will automatically say, like Pokemon Go, yeah, Pokemon Go, that's good, that's a good example. The Pokemon are the digitally created elements, but you would search in the real world for them. Honestly, suppose you look up the augmented reality on Google right now. In that case, I think the thumbnail that they use is a picture of Pokemon Go. So no, no reason to reinvent the wheel. It seems like a good enough illustration. But yeah, just bringing those digital elements into the real world, how it's related to sport. Um, I think by nature fans, fans of sport want to feel involved, feel like they're part of what's going on and feel close to the action. That's why seats closed down to the field cost more than seats that are higher up and those things because it's more of an involvement, right. And so, art can work in sport by being immersive. It's supposed to be an immersive technology. By nature, it means a technology that you get really involved with and almost forget you're involved with it. You're so into it. And so, allowing people to have experienced through AR brings them closer to the teams or the athletes or the sports they love by being immersive or by bringing those elements into their real world through digital creative elements.
Ronen Ainbinder 4:30
And what inspired you to focus your research on immersive technologies in sports, and particularly in augmented reality.
Chad Goebert 4:39
I was an athletic director for a while, and we had a football team, and we had an issue occur in our football team where we had a four-year starter graduate. And we had a player who was gonna come in and had not had any repetitions and not had any practice. And so one of the things we were like was how do we get them up to speed Without taking 22 bodies out to the football field, 11 on offense, and 11 on defense, those kinds of things and without taking those hits, because football is a rough game. And so how do we get that person up to speed and I was introduced to the CEO of a company that he's no longer the CEO there. He's moved on to another company. But he was the CEO of a company called Eon sports VR virtual reality. And what they did is they did sports training through virtual reality. And so we had a football program where our high school linebackers and our quarterbacks could get reps in a VR program, they just put on a VR headset in the office, and we'd be able to run them through multiple plays, they would see reads, they would see the defense, they would see the offense, they would see where they would go with things. And it was really a great experience. And we were able to give them dozens of reps in a very short amount of time. That would just take a lot longer and be a lot more physically demanding if we didn't have that. And so I was really into that. And so in speaking with the CEO of EA, sports, his name is Brendan Riley. He's like, yeah, it's really good for virtual reality and really good for training. But I think the best thing for marketing and for product interactions is augmented reality. Okay, well, I'm gonna check into this. And so I checked into it. It was something I was really interested in. And then when I, when I started my research journey, I had some great people around me who encouraged me to pursue this. Even though AR in sports, there's not a ton of research has been done. It's been used a lot, but it's not been researched a lot. And so I had some great people encourage me to research it. And so that's how I got to AR. I still really love VR, too. That's why I throw it in their immersive technologies. That umbrella covers both of those things. So I like both of them. But my focus really is augmented reality. But that's how I got where I am.
Ronen Ainbinder 6:43
And when was this?
Chad Goebert 6:46
So we did the VR, we did the VR football thing, probably six or seven years ago, in Tampa, Florida. And we use the same program to train our quarterbacks that the Tampa Bay Buccaneers used to train their quarterbacks, but we used it like three months before they did. So we, as a high school program, were three months ahead of the NFL. And so we started that about six or seven years ago. And then my research has really been the last four years, mostly the last three years, in particular my research into AR. So that's where we are now.
Ronen Ainbinder 7:19
super interesting to see how it's one technology that is very, very recent. I'd say it's one of the most recent technologies that has been taking over sports and has been taking over so fast. One of the examples of the things that I can use, from top of mine, is the experience they created with Nickelodeon on NFL, and if you watched how to like out of certain colors. Slime was just popping over all over the screen. The like the field is so fun to watch. And this is something super new. I mean, we're going to, we're going to be discussing a little bit more about adoption, and how long is it going to really see it everywhere, at all times a little bit later in the interview. But I want to know if there's any specific pain that you think AR augmented reality is really addressing in the world of marketing, not in sports. In sports, you mentioned a little bit is like that pain of being, like having the need of being involved and being as engaged as possible. But what about marketing? How, exactly, is AR addressing pain? If there's any pain just wandering in, in the world of marketing?
Chad Goebert 8:35
Yeah, this is a really good and timely question, especially coming off or hopefully coming off what's been going on with a pandemic and being less involved in things. So Forbes magazine had an article where they talked to one of their Forbes. They call him a Forbes agency panel. They're experts in marketing because I work in these companies. And they covered this topic a little bit. And this was just this year, some of the things off the top of my head, social shopping experiences. So maybe we're going to stores less than we used to. And definitely a year ago or so, we started going to stores a lot less just because of restrictions and things like that. But social shopping experiences have been really picked up by companies like Snapchat, and Instagram where they have shoppable filters and engagement. So AR engagements and shoppable filters, including virtual try-on or in-room demos, IKEA has one where you can try their furniture in your room, you can scan your room surface, and you pick a piece of furniture they'll place it in there. And so these social shopping experiences, I think that the pain point is that people aren't getting out and shopping as much as seeing things. Honestly, one of the biggest things with consumers is being able to try things on and experience things. And so with Snapchat, Instagram, all these other things that people can try on a watch in augmented reality, you can scan your wrist, and you see what looks like sunglasses, clothes, things like that. So I think Social shopping experiences are a huge thing, virtual engagements, being able to interact with people or things in places where we can no longer interact with people and being so like, the Dallas Cowboys did one call a pose with the pros, where you could stand in front of a, they call it a magic mirror, which is basically a mirror where I'm in reality, people come in, and you could take a selfie with these players. And there's also a bunch of hologram technology that probably the next four or five years will allow holograms. I mean, there are already people doing things like at Apple events via hologram. Still, I think those things are gonna pick up. Then hybrid experiences are a big thing I think it can help out with, and so if it's not in sport, so in sport, we talked about that in the Stadium. Still, hybrid experiences in stores, concerts, or events where augmented reality may not be the main event. Still, it adds on the information of what's going on. So you're at a concert, and you need directions and something you can pull up a Wayfinding app that can show you an augmented reality where you're going, or you're shopping. If you want to find out more about a particular thing that you're shopping for, you can scan it, and it will show you what it looks like in your area. So maybe those hybrid experiences. And then another huge one, I think that will help out, is we're trying to get people into venues more. Into places, more and travel is coming back, it's a location-based AR that can move people around points of interest, you can make AR activations that are attached to a certain location geofence to a certain location, or to a certain business, that's usually how it works is that a business and you have to go to that business to scan it and interact with it. And then maybe they'll give you a discount to access that business and things like that. So maybe moving people around locations are, but those are the ones off the top of my head. I think that is really going to be especially considering where we are now valuable for companies maybe that are export-focused to us.
Ronen Ainbinder 11:49
super exciting. To hear all the different opportunities and possibilities of this technology. I remember that I read one of your academic papers, where you talked about fine perceptions of augmented reality. In sports marketing. I remember you mentioned how you are discussed in the middle of the paper? How watching a sports experience having sports experience with glasses wasn't really that viable? Eventually, I think they tried it on somewhere with only the google glasses. And like messed up or didn't really work? So do you have any take on it? If this is going to be something that will take over eventually in 100 100%? In one way? Or do you think it's just going to complement the experiences that we have, whether that's on Stadium or, as you mentioned, with products and see how they fit on me? Or on my friends, etc.? to like, what are you, what are your thoughts about? Where is it going to really, really get to?
Chad Goebert 12:55
Yeah, I think virtual reality as technology is more meant to take over and be its own thing with wherever, whatever area dance if it's gaming, or whatever it's meant to be its own standalone thing, I really do think the value of augmented reality is that complementary nature is that, especially in sport, so for sport, we're never going to replace that soccer match, or that football game or that basketball game. That's the core product like that's the core product. That's what everything revolves around in the sports industry. And so it's no different in reality that maybe it can enhance that core product. But I don't see it ever taking the place of that core product where people are there just for that, or people are just interacting with the AR thing. But I think it is. I think it is a really valuable piece of complementary technology that can make situations better. So I think sport is really popular. And sport is really valuable as far as viewing experience goes. And if something could just enhance that, make it better, and maybe drive more people to it. I think that's the way it is. So AR probably as a complimentary piece is the way to go.
Ronen Ainbinder 13:57
I want to talk about where we are standing in terms of technology. Is technology already here. And can we do most of what you've researched and found that we can do it already with the things we have already? I remember this. This was also an important element in your, in your research, introduction of the smartphone. And really, the billions of people having iPhones in their own pockets made a difference? Because that's how you can really bring the experience to the user. So I want to know in terms of technology if you think we're there. If you don't think we're there. What we'll do, do we still need where do you see it really evolving?
Chad Goebert 14:41
Yeah, like, like you said, the number of devices that are AR capable in the hands of consumers right now are in the billions. And that's because Google has an AR core and their devices. So all of their devices are being built now. Over the last four or five years, AR capabilities have been built into them specifically for no other reason. The AR interactions and Apple has an AR kit, which is their version. And the same thing lasts four or five years. Every phone or tablet they build has these things. So whether you know or not, most likely, if you're listening to this, now you have an AR-capable device in your pocket or very near you. And so the opportunity is there. Um, I think, as companies get smarter about how they want, or how they want to implement it, I think that's when we'll start to see a real explosion in it. The Gartner hype cycle, which is a technological hype cycle for when technology should be adopted. A couple of years ago, they had AR on there and thought it was five to 10 years away from mass adoption. But since the pandemic happened, they took it off the hype cycle, meaning that it's pretty much here like the technology is here to use. So that's always a good thing when you get off the Gartner hype cycle because it's adaptable technology. So that's good. That's where we are. I think what you mentioned earlier, with the NFL broadcast, where they did the playoff game on Nickelodeon with AR broadcasts, that's something I'm really into researching right now is broadcast AR. And that's a thing, like you mentioned, happening now. And it's happening for specific purposes; the NFL was using it to get a younger audience. By broadcasting on Nickelodeon, it was one of their most-viewed programs of the entire year. Abroad at a whole different demographic you normally wouldn't see, watching the NFL playoff game didn't take away from the main game they had. And then there's another company called the second spectrum that was recently acquired by genius sports. The second spectrum has a contract with the NBA. Still, they also have contracts with European football. To add AR graphics, broadcast AR graphics to games, they use artificial intelligence to give different broadcast modes. And so that's something I'm really into researching right now.
Ronen Ainbinder 16:51
So that technology's mostly here, but what about the learning curve of people? Learning how to use it in terms of adapting themselves to the technology? Where do you think we're standing in terms of that?
Chad Goebert 17:04
Uh, yeah, so I think the learning curve, I think, is going to be similar to other technologies, whereas it's almost gonna be generational. Some people have no use for it, which is fine, which is normal like that broadcast with the Nickelodeon stuff of slime shot everywhere. I guarantee you some people looked at that. Like, this is stupid, I don't want this, and they turn to a different channel, which is great, it's great to have options, it's great to have been able to say no, I don't want that to turn on. And so I think the younger generations, probably the youngest two generations we have right now, are intuitively interacting with AR, not even known via face filters through Snapchat, or Instagram or TikTok, or anything like that. My youngest daughter chats with me on the phone, and she automatically likes, can activate, and use the face filters. Like, I never taught her how to do that. And if you are just intuitive, it's built-in. And I think as those things happen, and as they're more intuitive and built into what we do, I think one of the things that will help with that, too, is that most AR experiences don't require third-party apps anymore. They can be built into apps. So if you're a fan of the New York Yankees, you could have it in the Yankee's app instead of going outside of the Yankees app to have AR stuff. And that builds trust because you're like, I'm a fan of the Yankees, they wouldn't build an app that would give me a virus on my phone that is worthless, I'm already gonna have it on there. And maybe I'll mess around with some of the AR stuff they have, just while I'm there. So I think as those things are built into those apps, it helps with the adoption. So I think we're getting there. I know, a few years here, there, give or take, just depending on what use has come out,
Ronen Ainbinder 18:41
I want to have a fire chat with you, some predictions and opportunities of immersive technologies, both outside sports, in non-professional sports, and meaning like amateur sports and other types of sports, because I feel like we've been really putting most of the attention of American sports, which is great because probably they're going to be the early adopters. But what about other types of, of, of sports? And here's where I'm gonna start with one prediction. I want to hear what you think. But I see the I see a marketplace evolving of AR in different immersive technologies, marketplace, where companies, whether you're big or small, can go to the marketplace and offer a specific product or idea that you have for a specific audience and then a provider or an AR AR technology, coder or company will eventually create that for them, and we'll put them out anywhere. Whether that's on an app or as a camera. What do you think about that? Do you see that happening in chat?
Chad Goebert 19:53
Yeah, I think the development of these things has been streamlined. Incredibly it used to be it. It was painstaking development and took someone with very specific skills. I'm going to have a class that I teach in the spring, where they will make their own AR interaction. And they're going to make it through a spark AR studio program that is free and pretty intuitive, and easy to learn. So people can get those things and can have access to those things. Where the opportunities are my predictions for opportunities in amateur or non-professionals. By the way, a lot of my research or interests have an American spark. It's like what I'm here for, but I will say sport overseas European sport is really doing a good job with AR stuff. Like people, I just saw something with a European soccer team that unveiled a kit where you could try it on an AR and different things like that. And so definitely, definitely, my lens is through the American landscape because I'm here. Still, a lot is going on there and some great things technologically, especially in Europe. And they're really leading the way with a lot of that stuff. But I think I'm outside of professional sport. One of the big things for amateur sport, even US sports, would be AR for training.
There are multiple apps that you can use AR for on the field training. There's one for soccer. The name slips my mind. But there's a soccer training app where you can train with AR, and it's about to get in touch, and it'll track how many touches you get like that. And then there's a basketball one called home court AI that will track your shooting percentages, track your shooting arc, will track your dribbling, and will track all kinds of things you can compete with other people across the world. So they're for sports training for amateur sport definitely. Like I said, one of my daughters uses the basketball one to improve her basketball skills and then immersion in games. But for outside of sports opportunities.
I really think one of the things we're going to see if I had to make a prediction is heads-up displays within cars. Yeah, almost picture Iron Man with his visor display of all the things going on. But heads-up displays are already happening on Audi. Volkswagen offers optional heads-up displays that pop up AR graphics Panasonic has a heads-up display with AR graphics. So it's in your field of vision while you're driving. That they plan to roll out in 2024. And there's gonna be a lot of cars. And we've already seen it being used as motorcycle helmets. Several mobile motorcycle helmets have a camera in the back, and it gives you a little square in your field of vision. So you can see your rear view so you can see who's behind you. But it also gives you some data of how fast you're going and the heads-up display. And then there are ski goggles, and swimming goggles that track your speed and your altitude for the ski goggles, and the swimming goggles track your lap and your split times and things like that. And it gives you a little heads-up display in your field of vision. So I think those things are already happening and are definitely coming. And then you have Amazon and Apple, who are really competing in the AR glasses category pretty heavily right now. Apple will probably be the best when it comes out. They tend to do that with products that do a lot of work on those but a lot of money on those things. It's been delayed a few times. So 2023 is probably the best-case scenario for the apple glasses. Maybe some people said all the way back to 2025. Still, those are things that will enable you to be in your field of vision without being distracted, see AR representations of texts or social media, or things like that. And so those things are happening. Google Maps has an AR heads-up display where they can do Wayfinding where you can hold up your phone. They'll put like literal arrows on the ground. AR for you to follow along, so I think that's where they're heading outside of sports a lot of those things just by nature the definition of augment is like augment to enhance what you're already doing and just make it better or in their eyes make it better give you a lot more information.
Ronen Ainbinder 24:02
Do you think this is a winner takes all or most of the market? Do you think one company will be eventually dominating AR and immersive experiences? Or do you think there would be multiple winners that will focus on different types of technologies, whether that's glasses or through their phone, or through broadcast? Do you think there would be like one for each one, or they like because what I'm thinking about is one could be really the provider that creates those experiences for those companies, right? After all, I don't see like I remember. I remember Lulu lemon created this virtual glass on on on some of their stores in a room. I think it was China. I don't remember where, but so where you were in the store. You just looked at the glass, and you see the leggings on you? And so that was super interesting, but I don't see brands doing this on their own. I see them using technology that already exists or a company that or a provider or a partner that already exists, and then just using them for their brand. So what do you think about that?
Chad Goebert 25:09
Yeah, I think you made a couple of good observations there. And that like, ar has a few different implementations. So you have the AR glasses that are coming, you have AR smartphone use, you have broadcast AR, and then you have like overlay AR, which is done, like, basically, by just putting an overlay of digital elements on an item, I think you will have different leaders in a different person like apple, focusing on their glasses, I don't think they care that much about the broadcast IRL. And I think the second spectrum is the leader, right, and right now, and the second spectrum doesn't care about the glasses part. So I think they will take their own little pieces of this and split up. But when I think about it overall, like if I was to think about the AR glasses thing, I think somebody would be the best to start with. We'll do it the best and, by nature, will have a stronghold or a foothold and be the leader. But I compared a lot to how smartphone adoption happened, where Apple had the iPhone, the first smartphone, and they were the leader, and some people still think they are the leader. But, there's a lot of other players in that world now because of what Apple did. And so they followed similarly built technology. And so they got better. And so I think there'll be a core product that comes along; there'll be the best. And then I think as it goes on, just by competition in the market, other products will try to keep up or try to up the ante. And so we'll see who can do it. But I think you're right about maybe not creating their own activations companies. I think it could be like, again, a comparison to the smartphone, how there's the App Store. And so, the technology being utilized is the smartphone itself through the app store. So there might be AR glasses being utilized. But it might have its own app store. So you can have a Nike app through their Lululemon like you talked about. And so maybe these companies will be able to use the access that technologies exist to create their own activities there. So I think those are all really realistic possibilities.
Ronen Ainbinder 27:11
What do you think will happen in the fitness space? Do you think there's an opportunity there?
Chad Goebert 27:17
Yeah, fitness is really interesting. So we've already seen, we've already seen companies that do running. I talked about swimming, where they can do tracking within the goggles. But we've seen running companies that do like, you can have classes that show an AR hologram that runs beside you, and you basically have it be your pacesetter because everybody knows that, like you run better. And you do enter times when you are competing with somebody, or you or you have something to chase or something to compete with. And so AR holograms that have been pacesetters for running events and fitness events. Even AR scoring is like gaming. So I've seen gyms that have their treadmills hooked up, and they show AR graphics of how everybody is doing and like a virtual race in the gym together. And so you can compete virtually with other people. And then there's also been, and they might get closer to an Esports type. But there are also cycling races where you have, you have basically a cycling system set up in your home, there's a company called Swift. That does it, and you can race people from all over the world with your avatar. And they do like actual races; they had an actual race where money was handed out to the winner, professional cyclists are starting to pick it up. So yeah, in the fitness industry, I think there's a lot of us especially. It could be as easy as instructional because a big part of the fitness industry is teaching people how to do things. And so AR is good for demonstrating. So you could pull out like, oh, I need to know the proper form to do a pull-up. And you could pull out your phone stand at that scan area, and they can have someone display it in the proper form. And then you can emulate it from there. And so yeah, the fitness industry, I think, has a lot of opportunities, too. It's, it's, I think we're gonna see people just like we saw in the pandemic, where people took a challenge and turned it into an opportunity. The fitness industry changed a lot during the pandemic by people starting to have virtual trainees like you through zoom. Right? I think those opportunities present themselves here, too.
Ronen Ainbinder 29:19
So awesome. I'm very much looking forward to what's going to happen. Where do you see your career going after finishing your research and understanding more and more about AR? Where do you see yourself going through or doing?
Chad Goebert 29:33
Yeah, so I'm lucky to be at a great university right now, Kennesaw State University, and I get to teach some incredible students. I do get to do research here. I really think that a big part of where I want to be for a long time is in the classroom and doing research. Honestly, some of my best ideas come from being in the classroom and bringing up technologies and things. And every once in a while, a student will just be like, Well, what about this or can you use it. For this, I'm like, I never even thought about that. That's a great idea. Right? And so it helps me keep a pulse on a lot of what's going on because there's just so much out there, you can't keep track of it or keep track of it all. So I think continuing to research in this area and then teaching and trying to prepare people to work in the sports industry. I think that's a big part of what I want to do.
Ronen Ainbinder 30:21
That's amazing, man. Well, you've been giving us an amazing lecture on AR and immersive technologies here on the halftime snacks. To all the listeners and me, man, I can't leave this awesome conversation without asking you may be a more personal question. And that is what a quote that you live by is? And why did you choose that quote? And it's any specific reason why
Chad Goebert 30:45
Oh, interesting. Um, I think one of the big things that I always try to focus on is, like, there's a quote. Basically, it says, esteems others as better than yourself. And that means it's basically a servant leadership type thing, and I want to help others. I want to be there for others.
And another thing that goes hand in hand with that is someone told me, like, you never know, when you encounter people, you encounter somebody you've never encountered before. You never know what people are going through in their life. You never know what happened to them on that day. And so have grace with people, care about people, and understand that maybe somebody, somebody's not a bad person, because you think you had a bad interaction with them. Maybe they had a bad day. And so having grace with people, I think those are, those are the things I really tried to do. And I've really been focusing on myself over the last couple of years.
Ronen Ainbinder 31:34
That's amazing. Chad, thank you so much for sharing that with us, man. And I wouldn't thank you so much for coming to the halftime snacks, man. It was an absolute pleasure to host you and really learn from you from everything you've been doing and researching and learning about AR and immersive technologies man, really looking forward to listening to this episode in like 10 years and seeing how many things you get right! Because I'm sure, it's gonna be most of them. So I'm really looking forward to that chat. And yeah, man, I appreciate you coming to the halftime snacks.